Comment on dear republicans, what's the point of alienating every single ally of the US?

• Objection@lemmy.ml ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

  Well it seemed like you were very much willing to carrying water for the actions of the Russian state by saying that the US does the same things, if not even worse. Suddenly you have no interest in comparing them? Try having the ability to follow a conversation before engaging in one.

  You telling me to “try having the ability to follow a conversation” is pretty rich considering how you’re constantly losing the plot and getting distracted by moralizing, like you’re doing here. You assumed that my goal was to “carry water for” the Russian state by talking about the bad things the US does. No, not really. I don’t particularly care which is worse between the two, at no point have I ever attempted to make that case. You assumed that was my angle, because that’s how you see the world, but that’s not how I see the world and I’ve told you that over and over again.

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  • zenitsu@sh.itjust.works ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

    If the cold war is “ancient ass” what does that make Hitler? “Prehistoric ass?” Completely arbitrary, of the example serves your position is fine, if it serves my position it doesn’t count.

    I’ll try to explain again since once doesn’t seem to be enough. It’s not about how old the examples are. You were using OLD examples to justify an opinion on the US NOWADAYS, while I was merely pointing out the similarities between Putin and Hitlers tactics. The difference between these two should be obvious.

    constantly losing the plot and getting distracted by moralizing

    keep shooting out this tired slogan. I’ve just been stating facts. I don’t give a fuck if your goal is to carry water for them or not, you made comparisons regardless so don’t suddenly pretend as if comparing them came out of nowhere and isn’t relevant to the topic.

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    • Objection@lemmy.ml ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

      The reason you assumed I was trying to carry water for Russia is that you assume I think in the same nonsense terms that you do, viewing geopolitics through this inane lens of “good guys” and “bad guys” like it’s a Saturday morning cartoon. In reality, they’re all ruthlessly self-interested and neither Russia nor the US has any interest in improving the lives of ordinary people (as I already told you, when I said Russian billionaires don’t exploit me only because they lack the power to do so). The correct way to view such conflicts is through the lens of realpolitik.

      To give a historical example, in the American Revolution, the revolutionaries were supported by the French monarchy. France’s absolute monarchy was less democratic than Britain’s, and obviously the French king did not support the revolution because he supported it’s ideals. The French only wanted the revolution to succeed in order to weaken Britain. The British colonists lobbied for and happily accepted the French support, realizing that, even if the French king was just as bad as the British king, the British government was the one exploiting them, while they had a common enemy with the French government.

      In the same way, I have no illusions about Russian capitalists or the Russian government being in some way “morally superior” or “the good guys,” but I also recognize that the American billionaires and government are the ones exploiting me, and are therefore my most direct and primary enemy.

      If you want to persuade me from that position, then you need to be able to make the case that supporting the American capitalists/government against the Russians is somehow in line with my material class interests. Preferably without relying on a single historical example from 80 years ago which has been cited over and over again to justify disasterous wars that made things worse for everyone.

      And if you can’t make that case to me, then you won’t be able to make it to a broad audience. And if you can’t make it to a broad audience, eventually, you will be unable to get elected on a platform that includes support for it, and Ukraine will be abandoned. And if Ukraine is going to be abandoned anyway, then it’s better to avoid prolonging the war for no reason, because it just means more people will die.

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      • zenitsu@sh.itjust.works ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago

        “good guys” and “bad guys” like it’s a Saturday morning cartoon. In reality, they’re all ruthlessly self-interested and neither Russia nor the US has any interest in improving the lives of ordinary people

        Not sure why you think this hyper-cynical teenage view is any less of an inane and immature lens than “saturday morning cartoons”

        The correct way to view such conflicts is through the lens of realpolitik.

        That’s just your opinion.

        ones exploiting me, and are therefore my most direct and primary enemy.

        I never positioned the conversation as being about who is exploiting YOU more though. You keep inserting your own personal interests as if it should be the compass when comparing the US and Russia, idk why.

        then you need to be able to make the case that supporting the American capitalists/government against the Russians is somehow in line with my material class interests

        No time for tankie bs, sorry. If you can’t already see how the US gov is incomparably better to what Russia has to over the world then you’re too far gone.

        you won’t be able to make it to a broad audience

        I’m not a celebrity or a pundit, I’m not here to sell my case to a “broad audience”, I just talk to individuals.

        And if Ukraine is going to be abandoned anyway

        “We should abandon it because it’s going to be abandoned anyway” is circular logic nonsense. The point should be people realizing that it’s best, even just for their own self-interest, for Ukraine to win.

        because it just means more people will die.

        You have no idea if supporting or surrendering would result in more or less deaths. Don’t pretend to know.

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