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So it is (I think the reasoning here is that, if God is the source of all Goodness and morality, rejecting belief in him necessitates rejecting God and, thus, belief in Him) but, like I mentioned, it’s Catholic belief that, in order for anything to warrant Hell, it just be willfully chosen.

Interesting. So a non-believer might not go to hell, so long as they don’t sin, but nor would they go to heaven. What, then?

Also, it raises the question of what counts as a sin. There are many things a Catholic would consider a sin that other people would not. Things like eating meat on Friday, use of contraceptives, or sex outside of marriage. Are these, if done by a non-Catholic, considered sins? And if not, is it not just…better not to be Catholic? Like, by converting people, is one not increasing the chance that they go to hell?

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WammKD@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨10⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

Interesting. So a non-believer might not go to hell, so long as they don’t sin, but nor would they go to heaven. What, then?

Oh; I think I’ve miscommunicated. I’m sorry about that. I wasn’t saying that they don’t go to Heaven; I mean, – technically – one could believe that, if one wanted (there have been no dogmatic statements that that isn’t what happens; in the middle ages, there was this theory than unbaptized infants went to a place called Limbo which was neither Heaven, nor Hell, nor Purgatory. It never really caught on as I think most people find something unsettling about a baby, of all things, not getting into Heaven. So one could believe that but most writing on the subject has assumed the non-believer can go to Heaven).

Of course, this whole thing necessitates that you believe in God and that God is Good (since that’s the perspective Catholics are writing from) but, if we assume these things are true about our world, one could not believe in God while not realizing morality and the Good of the world stems from Him. This becomes a mortal sin when you realize that these things stem from God and then still choose not to believe and reject him. Because – if you truly understand He’s the source, etc. – to still say, “I still won’t follow Him,” kind of requires that you…don’t do the things that are Good either, right? So, when we say that non-belief is a sin, it’s a little different than your average, say, Evangelical for whom the belief is the point, full-stop. Hopefully, I’m making more sense and not just being verbose…

Also, it raises the question of what counts as a sin. There are many things a Catholic would consider a sin that other people would not. Things like eating meat on Friday, use of contraceptives, or sex outside of marriage. Are these, if done by a non-Catholic, considered sins? And if not, is it not just…better not to be Catholic? Like, by converting people, is one not increasing the chance that they go to hell?

It’s a fair question; I’m pretty certain it’s a common fallacy (might not be the most accurate word…) that those who argue against religion – or Christianity, specifically – point to.

I think the issue is you’re considering these things non-harmful; in Catholic theology, sin separates us from God (to say the common quote) which hurts us but, to phrase the same thing differently, –since He’s the embodiment of morality – means we act immorally and hurt ourselves and others. So these things are things which are inherently hurtful and doing them would cause harm, regardless of belief or not. In theory, part of worshipping God is choosing the best thing for you and that’s part of the point in converting people (again, we’re not really the by-faith-alone people).

But I think you’d counter that these things aren’t really harmful (or, if they are, it’s certainly not evident outside of the Catholic Church telling you so). And that’s where I reveal that…I’m not an entirely orthodox Catholic and it’s not your logic that’s being wonky.

Outside of the eating-meat-on-Fridays (as that’s more of a practice of worship and I don’t think that grievous to perform, if you’re truly on board with the whole belief thing), I do find these positions…misguided. I don’t know whether there’s any way to reconcile them during the development of doctrine or they never will be. Maybe I’m the one who’s wrong; obviously, people have fought over these topics for many years.

But, in short, I think the reason your premise makes sense is that it seems more like extra chores than anything else but I think it makes more sense if you bear in mind that most Catholic theologians believe these things truly are harmful not only to our souls but also our bodies (brains included in that; not trying to draw a distinction).

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