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exploitedamerican@lemm.ee ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

Capitalism is the only system that promises people the ultra slim a d unlikely chance to become as wealthy as those who exploit the poor. what systems, besides capitalism in third world countries are worse than capitalism at its core? Where greed and ruthlessness are praised above virtuous ethical pursuits

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drwho@beehaw.org ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
Explains why so many people don’t seem to have consciences anymore, doesn’t it?

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DdCno1@beehaw.org ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
The obvious answer is that every single attempt at communism has produced far worse economic, environmental, developmental and ethical results than capitalism - while at the same time loudly promising to make everyone equal and happy. Isn’t it worse to promise freedom and decent life to everyone - instead of just the chance of “making it big” - and then completely failing at everything while limiting every kind of personal freedom and right, including the one of being the architect of your own happiness? It’s not even a competition.

I also highly doubt you would argue that the other side of the autocratic coin - Fascist systems with human rights abuses and poor ethics that are comparable to the worst communist systems on one hand, with usually completely incoherent economic policies on the other hand - are any better. Neither are absolutist monarchies.

Capitalism is highly flawed, no doubt, but if we look at the countries on this planet that are the most successful in terms of economics, equality, personal freedom, human rights, etc. then we find countries that made it work through regulation and strong government institutions. We should try and learn from those and use the slow nature of democratic change to tweak and improve our societies and economics based on what they have shown to work in the real world.

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- exploitedamerican@lemm.ee ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
  And the massive amounts of resources expended bu capitalist super powers to ensure those awful economic conditions isn’t the reason for them? 🤡 What about lybia, burkina faso and cuba before the ussr fell? Youre seriously just parroting anti socialist propaganda. Capitalism came to be the domination economic model in the 1600’s took control of half the world and immediately began searching for new markets to exploit while perpetuating warfare for profit, slavery to maximize profits and genocides to stifle any resistance or perpetuate the values of eugenics and racism but yeah communism is bad because of famine and people aren’t allowed work really hard to become wealth hoarding billionaires while a large subset of the population live in squalor to support such opulent lifestyles of luxury
  
  Break down the word capitalism and it tells you all you need to know. The intransitive verb at the root, to capitalize, is synonymous with “to exploit” and “to take advantage” the only time American capitalism ever allowed the working class to thrive was a brief moment of 4 decades after FDR legislated socialist policies to protect the working class from severe limitless exploitation and now legislation has been passed since that has rendered that progress irrelevant.
  
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  - DdCno1@beehaw.org ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
    
    Youre seriously just parroting anti socialist propaganda
    
    How utterly predictable.
    
    Capitalism came to be the domination economic model in the 1600
    
    Mate, stop reading Marx like a history book. Seriously. Captitalism wasn’t a thing yet and has many differences from the mercantilism of that time period, including importantly that it existed within a completely different system instead of encompassing all or even most of the economies of the time - and the wars of conquest, subjugation and extermination of other people was not a new invention of the colonial era. How is that any different from what e.g. Roman or Arab conquerors did centuries earlier, just to name two?
    
    perpetuating warfare for profit, slavery to maximize profits and genocides to stifle any resistance or perpetuate the values of eugenics and racism
    
    Are you even remotely aware of the crimes of Mao and Stalin? Their body counts doing exactly that far exceeds everyone else’s - but they did it under that red star you like so much, so it’s all right.
    
    but yeah communism is bad because of famine
    
    You never had to worry about your next meal, correct? I’m getting the distinct impression that you can’t even comprehend the horrors of e.g. the Holodomor or the Great Leap Forward. Yes, man-made famines are actually bad and communism is responsible for a few of those (which are also among the worst famines in all of human history) - or is that “anti socialist propaganda” as well? Was it Capitalist saboteurs, national-republican agitators or kulaks who were actually responsible?
    
    while a large subset of the population live in squalor to support such opulent lifestyles of luxury
    
    Ever seen Stalin’s dacha compared to the communal block houses that the ordinary Soviet citizen had to live in at the time, poorly heated, cramped homes where many families lived in the same apartment, with not an ounce of privacy or dignity? The gap between those two was far greater than between the average e.g. French home and a French leader’s home under evil capitalism right now. Hell, someone living on welfare in any Western European country 50 years ago was already enjoying a higher standard of living than your average Socialist worker could even dream of at the time.
    
    Break down the word capitalism
    
    Now you’re getting ridiculous.
    
    the only time American capitalism ever allowed the working class to thrive was a brief moment of 4 decades after FDR legislated socialist policies
    
    You’re so close to getting it, it hurts. Remember that part about tweaking and improving our societies and economics to counter the weak aspects of capitalism? Roosevelt did precisely that to counter the fallout of the Great Depression, which was a direct result of unregulated market capitalism. He was not a Socialist, far from it, but he recognized what worked.
    
    It is also incredibly important to mention that the benefits of his economic policy were highly segregated. Whites were first in line, every time. This was not an attempt at egalitarianism.
    
    Also fascism is capitalism in decline and monarchy is irrelevant because we are talking economic models.
    
    You can not be serious. Fascism is noteworthy for not having any clearly defined economic policies, but if there is one thing it definitely does is meddle with the economy to a far greater greater degree than what capitalists are comfortable with. At the same, time, Nazism in particular was aligned with some (but far from all) big business interests and implemented a significant number of privatization efforts. Also at the same time, the Nazis were deeply suspicious of, among other things, free international trade and the stock market, core pillars of capitalism. It’s complicated.
    
    And monarchies that were not capitalist were feudalist which is just a less refined version of capitalism.
    
    No, you can’t just attach the “capitalism” label to economic systems you don’t like and clearly don’t understand. Feudalism - from an economic perspective - is closer to the moneyless utopia of true socialism.
    
    The only thing missing from your comment is that any kind of socialist country that has already existed wasn’t actually true Socialism and thus doesn’t count. If I hadn’t mentioned it, it would have likely come up eventually, because you’re seriously doing nothing but frantically churning out every clichéd talking point that you can remember about this topic.
    
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    exploitedamerican@lemm.ee ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
    The only thing predictable is the pro capitalist propaganda points coming from you The ccp is not communist, its state owned capitalism. And russia hasn’t been the ussr since 1989 but it is authoritarian. But so is the usa.
    
    You sound like a billionaire bootlicking propaganda fountain.
    
    Any crimes of humanity you use to demonize communism and socialism i can name far worse criminality perpetrated by capitalist regimes.
    
    How many millions of children go without dinner every night in America alone? Capitalism aims to deprive people of resources so a small few can live in opulent luxury and spend more on weekend vacations than you could earn in a dozen consecutive lifetimes. And you are incorrect i have endured food insecurity. But yay america and capitalism because anyone can just pull themselves up by the bootstraps if they can just allow themselves to be treated like a disposable automaton to earn peanuts while being degraded so someone can take in passive income on their back.
    
    Also fascism is inherently anti communist. What are you going to tell me next that the Nazi’s were socialist because they had the word socialist in their description? Who were the first group of people hitler vilified and sent to the labor camps? Oh right! The communists 🤣 fascism is primarily marked by the intersection of economic and military industry in control of the governing and media apparatuses. With characteristics such as the suppression of labor power, the protection of corporste power, sexism, obsession with national security and militsrism, unification around a common scapegoated enemy, disdain for intellectuals and artists, disdain for human rights, religious ideals intertwined with government, militarized police, obsession with crime and punishment, blatant cronyism, nepotism and corruption. The only one of the traits of fascism that America can claim plausible deniability on is fraudulent elections but anyone witj a brain can see our whole political system is owned by the wealthy. A princeton study showed unequivocally that the amount of influence a person has on policy is directly related to their economic status with a vast majority of the population who arent multi millionaires having a statistical near zero effect on any issue regardless of how popular or unpopular it may be to the boting general public.
    
    And at least stalin wasn’t murdering and starving innocents to increase shareholder dividends.
    
    Authoritarianism is bad but if i had to choose ill take the one where the regime makes an effort to ensure the citizens needs are met, as opposed to maintaining high profits so billionaires can buy more yachts and lobbyists to bribe politicians legally. whats the homelessness rate in cuba today? Oh yeah it’s virtually non existent meanwhile the us has the highest rate of homelessness and suicide since the gilded age and great depression. And also cuba such a socialist shithole as you would undoubtedly claim, still managed to innovate a vaccine to prevent lung cancer that is so effective the US had to begrudgingly admit it existed and work with the researchers who developed it to bring it to market in the usa where it is currently undergoing clinical trials (at a snails pace since the American capitalist health insurance cartels have zero interest in providing a cure for any cancer)
    
    Everything in capitalism is commoditized including the suffering and death of those who are adversely affected by a system that rewards greed and lacks humanity. One of many cases in point being the war on drugs which has turned America into a fascist police state. We are conditioned to believe prohibition is continuing to erradicste the supply and demand of narcotics. Meanwhile the supply and demand have only grown since the war on drugs began and in reality the only things these laws do are increase the black market value of narcotics making them more profitable for socially elite bulk distributors, while commoditizing the poor mental health issues and suffering of those living in our capitalist system who are seeking escape and relief through self medication, to keep prisons at maximum occupancy and increase the profits of prison industrial profiteers. While the public are propagandized to support these blatantly authoritarian fascist laws that make things worse so more resources can be diverted to the police force who maintain racist attitudes mainly due to these drug prohibition laws which were all built upon the most racist and ignorant ideas of the early 20th century. And it also leads to the evolution of the market so now the majority of the illicit opiod supply is tainted with fentanyl analogues because its easier to smuggle something uktra potent and that reduces risk, so thank you DEA for the increase in overdoses and all the fentanyl in the black market supply. All of this is not only absurd and mindless its blatantly unconstitutional and illegal for several reasons. But again America is a capitalist empire in decline exhibiting severe symptoms of fascism.
    
    Plus You had nothing to say of burkina faso and libya which were both successful until western capitalist powers assassinated their leaders and installed far right capitalist regimes. So much for “socialism always fails” if that were the case why is so much spent to ensure its failure? And all that man made famine you speak of, you fail to leave out who were responsible for the lack of food resources resulting from insurgent action by capitalist aggressors
    
    And I understand feudalism. Its a system where the ultra wealthy act as landlords for an arbitrary amount of the crops and goods produced on their land but then that devolved into paying rent and if not one was charged as a criminal for stealing the resources of the land they lived on. Capitalism as it is today ultimately eroding all the socialist protections fdr legislated through the FLSA of 1938, has devolved into a system of neo feudalism. It is a fact that it cost more to purchase and maintain slaves under chattel slavery than Americans earning mininum wage anywhere in the country today are currently compensated.
    
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- anachronist@midwest.social ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
  
  but if we look at the countries on this planet that are the most successful in terms of economics, equality, personal freedom, human rights, etc. then we find countries that made it work through regulation and strong government institutions
  
  Yeah that’s socialism. The best societies were all degrees of socialist, this includes western Europe and the USA at its mid-century peak. These societies all had aggressive, borderline confiscatory progressive taxation, large scale government intervention in the economy (in the US especially aggressive anti-trust), a generous social welfare state, and a large and professionalized civil service.
  
  Remove those things and you quickly slide into a dystopian fascist nightmare state as the US and parts of Europe like the UK are discovering.
  
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  - DdCno1@beehaw.org ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
    You’re forgetting that these countries also have among the highest economic freedom in the world, protect personal property and investments, provide a stable and reliable environment to conduct very capitalist business. The economic system is capitalist, not socialist. There is no planned economy, most industries are in private hands. Strong regulation keeps capitalist excesses in check as you’ve correctly identified, while the high taxation levels the playing field by financing a robust safety net and other government services everyone benefits from.
    
    In Germany, the term for this kind of system is social market economy, with social being a qualifier and market economy the system.
    
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    t3rmit3@beehaw.org ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
    So, still not Capitalism tho
    
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