Comment on What's the deal with male loneliness?
GamingChairModel@lemmy.world 2 weeks agoAgain not talking about the main issue that every men that feel alone will tell you as the root of their problem:
-Lack of a relationship.
-Lack of friendships due other friends being invested in their relationships.
Actually, your comment touches on something that is really interesting to me, and a major part of where you and I differ on what male loneliness means. You’ve elevated the romantic committed relationship with a woman as the primary means by which men are expected to derive social standing and stability, but I view it primarily as an issue of friendships, mainly friendships with other men. The loneliness problem, in my view, comes from men being unable to form strong relationships with other men, and a wife or girlfriend or whatever is secondary to that.
Maybe it’s because I’ve always had stability in my friendships but didn’t have committed romantic relationships until my 30’s, but it seems like the problem of loneliness comes from not feeling like you have people in your corner (friends, family, even work colleagues), but I think focusing on sexual and romantic relationships is itself isolating and lonely, even for men who do get married. Now that I’m married I still spend plenty of time with my friends, married or single, based on the topic/activity/interest that ties us together.
daniskarma@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 weeks ago
Toxic masculinity is definitely not a part of relationships falling apart.
Anyone who had live through being in a group of single people through their youth and, as years pass, became the only one single on that group could probably confirm the experience. Friendships do not fall apart just because some male toxicity. It’s way simpler, it’s just that when two people do not have partners they can devote a lot of time and emotional energy to each other. When you are single a friend can easily be the most important person of your life. When you have a partner the amount of time and emotional energy that you have for friends is inferior, as you want to spend a great deal of that time and energy to your partner (as it’s natural). Then relationships became different. It’s not that it’s impossible to have “married friends”. But it’s certainly not the same as having a close single friend. And toxic masculinity does not take a part in any part of this process. The process is just a natural thing to happen on these situations.
Yes, people can cope trying to make new friendships. But that’s just a way to cope. Same as filing your live with hobbies and social activities can help coping with the lack of a romantic partner. But it does not solve the base issue. It’s like taking antidepressants for a depression, it helps, but it’s no solution, and the lack of antidepressants was not the issue.
Having a romantic relationship is important for many people. Denying that can be alienating, as you are denying personal experiences and personal feelings. I don’t think that solution is convincing people that their natural desires of being as loved as they see other people to be is just wrong and that they should live with even wanting that love (while they see plenty of other people enjoying that kind love).
GamingChairModel@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
That’s what I’m talking about, though. You see male friendships as a method of coping with a more fundamental problem relating to women, and I totally disagree, and argue that healthy male friendships are social connections worth developing and maintaining in their own right, whether you are or aren’t in a committed relationship with a woman. Even your framing of why male friendships fall apart involves women. It’s the centrality of women in your worldview that is preventing you from seeing how male friendships are a critical thing to have in addressing male loneliness.
Put another way, married men need healthy male friendships, too. Putting all of that emotional labor into a single link with a woman is fragile and unreliable, and I’d argue inherently unhealthy. People need multiple social links and the resilience and support that comes from whole groups connected in a web, not just a bunch of isolated pairings.
And to be clear, I’m not saying that friendships are a replacement for romantic and sexual relationships. I’m saying that social fluency, empathy, and thoughtfulness necessary for being able to maintain deep friendships are important skillsets for maintaining romantic relationships as well. The lack of romantic partners, then, isn’t the “base issue,” but is a symptom of the internal state of the person and how that person interacts with the world.
So I maintain that your worldview switches cause and effect, at least compared to mine. And maybe I’m wrong, and I’m not trying to convince you that I’m right. I’m bringing all this up to share that the surprising part of this line of comments is that I was genuinely not expecting someone to treat romantic difficulties as a primary or fundamental cause of male loneliness. To show you that at least there are other people who view these issues very differently from you, and that there’s a broad diversity of thought on the topic.
daniskarma@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 weeks ago
Fun fact. At no point in my comments you’ll see that I referred to “male friends” or “female friends”.
Plenty of men had female friends that got away because they fell in love with some other man/woman.
It makes no difference the gender of the friends in my theory.
The thing is that you can be the best friend in the world, a partner will always come first for the other person. It’s not a matter of lack of empathy or any other"toxic male behavior" here. It’s just people having different priorities in life. And a problem with some people being no one’s priority.
I’m not convinced that my theory is true. As this os an incredibly complex topic. I just think that the whole “male toxicity is to blame” is just an easy scape goat or political dogma. “Toxic masculinity and sexism is bad so it must be the cause of every gendered issue in society”, and then constructing the argument needed for that statement to maintain true. And while sexism it’s obviously bad, it does not need to be the source of any and all problems. Some problems, I think, have other sources.
GamingChairModel@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Perhaps I’ve erred in framing it in heteronormative terms, but it seems that the type of problem being described does depend in part on sexual orientation, and the main point I’m making isn’t gendered at all. You’ve framed romantic partnership as the cornerstone of healthy social interaction, something that needs to be in place first in order for men to thrive socially. I see it as more of a capstone, the last thing to put in place after already building up something strong and robust.
People who are emotionally and socially healthy can find romantic partners that complement them well, without putting too much on that relationship or even straining it from over-burdening that link.
And so framing it as being a competition or ranking ignores how these things are complementary. Having strong outside friendships improves the romantic relationships and strengthens the long term commitment there. Expecting the romantic partner to be the everything is what makes people lonely, because we’re not built for drifting independent pairings untethered to the rest of society. We partner up and the web of relationships outside that relationship provides bracing support for the romantic link itself.
Toxic masculinity is the expectation that men can’t be certain things, including emotionally supportive, and that stifling effect on male relationships with others isolates those men. The loneliness that follows is part of it, almost an inevitable consequence of it.