Firstly, was wondering if orthodox think the Ukraine-Russia conflict is a scandal upon orthodoxy. Both sides are majority orthodox I think. Although it could be argued that they are simply imperfect or sinful men in charge. Seems to reflect poorly on orthodoxy today.
But the rigors of the fasts seem as something different. I both like and do not like the orthodox fasting regimen.
I realized there is a parallel to the canonical fasts of the orthodox church and Catholicism: this week is the Ember days for trad Catholics, which are three days of fasting, and that occurs 4 times a year, roughly near the orthodox seasons of fasting. Only a few days of Catholics, compared to weeks for orthodox, and orthodox fast weekly - orthodox seem to plainly fast more, and in some ways this seems spiritually better than Catholicism, to me.
And Catholics' Lent is not as strict as the Great Fast of orthodox, but for trad Catholics still is somewhat strict. The Vatican 2 church has all but abolished the Lenten fast, only requiring abstinence from meat on the Fridays, and fasting I think on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday (it seems orthodox do not make a distinction between abstinence and fasting, although they do create different rules for different days on what can be eaten). V2 church has also scrapped ember days, and fasting before holy days (vigils), and weekly abstinence on Fridays - there is practically no required fasting or abstinence. This is almost to me a confirmation that they are not Catholic, or Christian, but is a separate conversation, as the comparative laxity of pre-Vatican 2 Catholicism compared to orthodox fasts makes me pause to question how things could have gotten that lax. I'd need to read more of the history of how Catholics fasted over time.
I know that some saints observed "multiple lents", which then led me to realize people used to fast during Advent (or for orthodox the "Nativity fast"), then found orthodox also observe the Apostles' fast and Dormition fast. So I assume that was partially what was being alluded to.
So I like that orthodox fast more frequently. But the strict veganism (of some?) seems a bit excessive and impractical. One ortho site suggested if people are concerned about deficiency with calcium, to drink orange juice fortified with calcium then. This strikes me as unnatural, and I would think relaxing the fast to allow dairy to naturally get calcium would probably be more reasonable and beneficial. At least this is the kind of "dead end" I thought I've experienced when considering becoming vegan before. But it seems they eat some fish now and then. That's alright. There needs to be some natural source for vitamin B12 as well. Again I felt like at a dead end on this route, so I have concluded recently that some kind of cyclical meat and dairy eating and then subsequent veganism seems most spiritually and physically sustainable and healthy for me. Like maybe eat meat on Sunday, and possibly a Thursday, if I'm going to try to observe more of this veganism for spirituality. But I also think stress and physical activity in my life has created a greater demand for those foods, so maybe with adjustments in life a stricter vegan abstinence would be possible.
Local orthodox church events have always had meat at them, so I never knew there was an inclination towards vegetarianism among orthodox.
Firstly, was wondering if orthodox think the Ukraine-Russia conflict is a scandal upon orthodoxy. Both sides are majority orthodox I think. Although it could be argued that they are simply imperfect or sinful men in charge. Seems to reflect poorly on orthodoxy today.
There were issues between the Moscow Patriarchate and the Ecumenical Patriarchate since 2019 involving the autocephaly of the Ukraine. Needless to say, the EP would seem a bit vindicated in its claims that the MP regularly goes too far and is nothing more than the mouthpiece of a dictator.
Having said that, there are some people that are really trying to be super-neutral and discourage all waging of war... But a lot of people are outright condemning Putin and saying Patriarch Kirill of the MP is in the wrong for not vocally opposing the war. Frankly, although I am not MP and actually EP, I also think that this is completely wrong.
It certainly is a bad look but let's remember that the world is going to be this way no matter what the Orthodox say or want.
We are not in control of these countries.
I realized there is a parallel to the canonical fasts of the orthodox church and Catholicism: this week is the Ember days for trad Catholics, which are three days of fasting, and that occurs 4 times a year, roughly near the orthodox seasons of fasting. Only a few days of Catholics, compared to weeks for orthodox, and orthodox fast weekly - orthodox seem to plainly fast more, and in some ways this seems spiritually better than Catholicism, to me.
Yes it is, but the fasting we do is actually identical to the fasting that used to be expected of Catholics as far as I knew. Indeed, for a long time the Catholics in the US even had 'fish Fridays' which is a reflection of their previous practice of abstaining from meat on Friday (here they considered fish to not be a conventional meat)... Yet it was even this fish Fridays that grew out of the absolute vegetarian Fridays.
And Catholics’ Lent is not as strict as the Great Fast of orthodox, but for trad Catholics still is somewhat strict. The Vatican 2 church has all but abolished the Lenten fast, only requiring abstinence from meat on the Fridays, and fasting I think on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday (it seems orthodox do not make a distinction between abstinence and fasting, although they do create different rules for different days on what can be eaten). V2 church has also scrapped ember days, and fasting before holy days (vigils), and weekly abstinence on Fridays - there is practically no required fasting or abstinence. This is almost to me a confirmation that they are not Catholic, or Christian, but is a separate conversation, as the comparative laxity of pre-Vatican 2 Catholicism compared to orthodox fasts makes me pause to question how things could have gotten that lax. I’d need to read more of the history of how Catholics fasted over time.
I cheer on your conclusion.
I know that some saints observed “multiple lents”, which then led me to realize people used to fast during Advent (or for orthodox the “Nativity fast”), then found orthodox also observe the Apostles’ fast and Dormition fast. So I assume that was partially what was being alluded to.
Yes, those are basically the three substantial fasts.
So I like that orthodox fast more frequently. But the strict veganism (of some?) seems a bit excessive and impractical. One ortho site suggested if people are concerned about deficiency with calcium, to drink orange juice fortified with calcium then. This strikes me as unnatural, and I would think relaxing the fast to allow dairy to naturally get calcium would probably be more reasonable and beneficial. At least this is the kind of “dead end” I thought I’ve experienced when considering becoming vegan before. But it seems they eat some fish now and then. That’s alright. There needs to be some natural source for vitamin B12 as well. Again I felt like at a dead end on this route, so I have concluded recently that some kind of cyclical meat and dairy eating and then subsequent veganism seems most spiritually and physically sustainable and healthy for me. Like maybe eat meat on Sunday, and possibly a Thursday, if I’m going to try to observe more of this veganism for spirituality. But I also think stress and physical activity in my life has created a greater demand for those foods, so maybe with adjustments in life a stricter vegan abstinence would be possible.
It seems really silly for dudes to be like "three course vegetarian Indian meal is allowable, but can of tuna isn't."
The nun at our church tells us to not go overboard, and also says that we should break the fast to be polite and accept another's hospitality. Just try to make up a day at the very end when we do so. Though, of course, we ideally do abstain as best as we can.
It also seems weird to be like I substitute coconut cream for regular cream in my coffee...
I have some really luxurious frappucinos instead of ice cream...
So I did once hear a man who is better Orthodox than me say that the key thing to do is to also focus very little on what you eat, which means to eat only out of necessity, and to just woof it down without regard for taste.
So, for instance, a man who has to grab lunch quick at work that takes something cheap and relatively healthy that has small bits of seafood or pork in it (he can't help it) but eats it without any amount of delectation, simply getting through the process, has upheld to some degree the spirit of the fast... while a luxurious Indian buffet outing may be a violation of it.
Yet, I would also say that meat is very avoidable in most countries, so this is unique.
It's a very difficult thing to navigate.
Local orthodox church events have always had meat at them, so I never knew there was an inclination towards vegetarianism among orthodox.
There really is. Met many former and active vegetarians/vegans/reducitarians in the Church. Frankly, I love it.
I have become far more open to it after i did my first ever fast and realized that vegetarianism is healthy and sustainable and, most importantly, no animals suffer.
After doing long periods as a vegan, being vegetarian seems absolutely decadent & delightful! But I cannot do this because I am a married man and my wife would never let me turn the house vegetarian.
squashkin@wolfballs.com 2 years ago
This got me thinking of a few things
Firstly, was wondering if orthodox think the Ukraine-Russia conflict is a scandal upon orthodoxy. Both sides are majority orthodox I think. Although it could be argued that they are simply imperfect or sinful men in charge. Seems to reflect poorly on orthodoxy today.
But the rigors of the fasts seem as something different. I both like and do not like the orthodox fasting regimen.
I realized there is a parallel to the canonical fasts of the orthodox church and Catholicism: this week is the Ember days for trad Catholics, which are three days of fasting, and that occurs 4 times a year, roughly near the orthodox seasons of fasting. Only a few days of Catholics, compared to weeks for orthodox, and orthodox fast weekly - orthodox seem to plainly fast more, and in some ways this seems spiritually better than Catholicism, to me.
And Catholics' Lent is not as strict as the Great Fast of orthodox, but for trad Catholics still is somewhat strict. The Vatican 2 church has all but abolished the Lenten fast, only requiring abstinence from meat on the Fridays, and fasting I think on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday (it seems orthodox do not make a distinction between abstinence and fasting, although they do create different rules for different days on what can be eaten). V2 church has also scrapped ember days, and fasting before holy days (vigils), and weekly abstinence on Fridays - there is practically no required fasting or abstinence. This is almost to me a confirmation that they are not Catholic, or Christian, but is a separate conversation, as the comparative laxity of pre-Vatican 2 Catholicism compared to orthodox fasts makes me pause to question how things could have gotten that lax. I'd need to read more of the history of how Catholics fasted over time.
I know that some saints observed "multiple lents", which then led me to realize people used to fast during Advent (or for orthodox the "Nativity fast"), then found orthodox also observe the Apostles' fast and Dormition fast. So I assume that was partially what was being alluded to.
So I like that orthodox fast more frequently. But the strict veganism (of some?) seems a bit excessive and impractical. One ortho site suggested if people are concerned about deficiency with calcium, to drink orange juice fortified with calcium then. This strikes me as unnatural, and I would think relaxing the fast to allow dairy to naturally get calcium would probably be more reasonable and beneficial. At least this is the kind of "dead end" I thought I've experienced when considering becoming vegan before. But it seems they eat some fish now and then. That's alright. There needs to be some natural source for vitamin B12 as well. Again I felt like at a dead end on this route, so I have concluded recently that some kind of cyclical meat and dairy eating and then subsequent veganism seems most spiritually and physically sustainable and healthy for me. Like maybe eat meat on Sunday, and possibly a Thursday, if I'm going to try to observe more of this veganism for spirituality. But I also think stress and physical activity in my life has created a greater demand for those foods, so maybe with adjustments in life a stricter vegan abstinence would be possible.
Local orthodox church events have always had meat at them, so I never knew there was an inclination towards vegetarianism among orthodox.
Monarque@wolfballs.com 2 years ago
There were issues between the Moscow Patriarchate and the Ecumenical Patriarchate since 2019 involving the autocephaly of the Ukraine. Needless to say, the EP would seem a bit vindicated in its claims that the MP regularly goes too far and is nothing more than the mouthpiece of a dictator.
Having said that, there are some people that are really trying to be super-neutral and discourage all waging of war... But a lot of people are outright condemning Putin and saying Patriarch Kirill of the MP is in the wrong for not vocally opposing the war. Frankly, although I am not MP and actually EP, I also think that this is completely wrong.
It certainly is a bad look but let's remember that the world is going to be this way no matter what the Orthodox say or want.
We are not in control of these countries.
Yes it is, but the fasting we do is actually identical to the fasting that used to be expected of Catholics as far as I knew. Indeed, for a long time the Catholics in the US even had 'fish Fridays' which is a reflection of their previous practice of abstaining from meat on Friday (here they considered fish to not be a conventional meat)... Yet it was even this fish Fridays that grew out of the absolute vegetarian Fridays.
I cheer on your conclusion.
Yes, those are basically the three substantial fasts.
It seems really silly for dudes to be like "three course vegetarian Indian meal is allowable, but can of tuna isn't."
The nun at our church tells us to not go overboard, and also says that we should break the fast to be polite and accept another's hospitality. Just try to make up a day at the very end when we do so. Though, of course, we ideally do abstain as best as we can.
It also seems weird to be like I substitute coconut cream for regular cream in my coffee...
I have some really luxurious frappucinos instead of ice cream...
So I did once hear a man who is better Orthodox than me say that the key thing to do is to also focus very little on what you eat, which means to eat only out of necessity, and to just woof it down without regard for taste.
So, for instance, a man who has to grab lunch quick at work that takes something cheap and relatively healthy that has small bits of seafood or pork in it (he can't help it) but eats it without any amount of delectation, simply getting through the process, has upheld to some degree the spirit of the fast... while a luxurious Indian buffet outing may be a violation of it.
Yet, I would also say that meat is very avoidable in most countries, so this is unique.
It's a very difficult thing to navigate.
There really is. Met many former and active vegetarians/vegans/reducitarians in the Church. Frankly, I love it.
I have become far more open to it after i did my first ever fast and realized that vegetarianism is healthy and sustainable and, most importantly, no animals suffer.
After doing long periods as a vegan, being vegetarian seems absolutely decadent & delightful! But I cannot do this because I am a married man and my wife would never let me turn the house vegetarian.