Comment on Do you feel manipulated? By whom (or by what)?

kava@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

• average650@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

  Sure, but usually the term manipulation has a negative connotation.

  In a sense, when my kid asks for fruit, they are manipulating me. But that’s not what anyone means. They mean a kind of devious persuasion.

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  • kava@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    Yes, I understand and agree. But for sake of argument… Fundamentally, what’s the difference? I try to make you believe what I want you to. Maybe I’m selling you a used car. Maybe I’m trying to have sex with you. Maybe I want you to give me a fruit.

    The government wants to justify a war, think tanks want you to support certain policies, advertisers want you to buy their product.

    I think the only real difference is scale and “maliciousness”. Your kid doesn’t have the capacity for large scale manipulation and his goals aren’t particularly harmful. However someone like Goebbels has both the capacity and very harmful goals.

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    • dezmd@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      Fundamentally, what’s the difference?

      Ethics and morality.

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      • kava@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

        So if I manipulate you into doing something because I thought it was in your best interest, it isn’t manipulation anymore?

        Let’s say I know you’re drunk and don’t want you to drive. I trick you into giving me your keys by pretending to want to put away your coat. Is that manipulation?

        Some would say it’s ethical because you’re preventing potential harm. Some would say it’s unethical because you are lying and deceiving someone and essentially forcing them to do something against their will.

        I honestly just think manipulation goes hand and hand with communication. Almost anything we say is an attempt to sway people to our viewpoints, consciously or not. Manipulation isn’t bad or good, it just is.

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    • average650@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      Why do you put maliciousness in quotes?

      Kids absolutely can be malicious. Sure, it’s a small scale but kids can absolutely manipulate. Asking for an apple , if they really just want an apple, is not manipulation because it’s not malicious. Little Susie telling her sister Jess to give her her soda or shell tell their parents about how the window broke is 100% manipulative though.

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      • kava@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

        Because it’s sort of hard to describe. Some may say any type of persuasion or attempt at coercion is malicious since in a way you are trying to overpower someone’s will and gain their consent.

        I don’t think it’s so clear cut since this type of thing is essential to human communication and relationships. We like to think of ourselves as good people but every time we interact with others we put on a mask and this again can be considered manipulation.

        Little Susie telling her sister Jess to give her her soda or shell tell their parents about how the window broke is 100% manipulative though

        Ok, so in your opinion it is manipulative when you use deception? When you lie to get what you want?

        One thing I find interesting about propaganda is that there is almost always some amount of truth in there. It’s in how the truth is presented that defines the message. What you choose to say and what you don’t. That can be very persuasive. Would you consider that type of thing manipulation?

        I think this conversation is interesting please don’t think I’m being pedantic. I just wanna attempt to get at the root of this definition

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