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TranscendentalEmpire@lemmy.today ⁨6⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

So I’m your worldview women are inherently in need of protection from men, who are inherently predators? Yeah, maybe go read some feminist texts before making broad generalizations like that…

Another strawman… Are we talking about all men? When did I say all men were predators ? We are talking about a 50 year old man who’s been married several times and has defended the abuse allegations of his good friend Marilyn Manson?

Yes, I would apply considerations of wealth imbalance far before applying considerations of gender imbalances, as wealth imbalances tend to create much more oppressive conditions.

And you aren’t doing it in this case because…? Also, how often do you see a relationship between an old man and a teenager where there wasn’t a wealth imbalance…it’s almost like that’s inherent to the problem.

Now whose strawmanning? Should every relationship need to conform to your notions of “normal”?

Still you. How is being able to relate to someone not topical to relationships?

Why couldn’t anyone use that same rationale to broadly criticize mixed culture relationships, queer relationships, or any other form of relationship?

Lol, it’s telling that you are equating all of these to a 50 year old millionaire marrying a 19 year old. True ally.

What exactly is the through line between mixed culture, queer relationships, and “any form of relationship”? And what prevents them from relating to each other? Oh, I’m queer and so is my partner…we obviously don’t have anything to talk about. What are you talking about?

The dude is from an entirely different generation.

The fixation on the 50 year old millionaire and not the specifics of their relationship erases the woman.

That’s not a specific of the relationship?

What’s the millionaire’s partner’s name? Who is she as a person? Has she spoke about abuse, coersion, or grooming?

The whole point is that the power dynamic is obvious and can be abused to control the relationship. Including talking to people about the relationship.

Do old men always groom young women? Are young men impervious to grooming, coersion, and abuse from old women?

Is there not an established enough history of that happening coming from rich, powerful, and famous men?

Did I say anything about rich powerful and famous women not being able to do the same?

Do you think that narratives that place women as innocents who need to be protected are useful in pushing forward feminist golas of sex/gender equality? How?

That is the narrative you are attempting to represent this as. Women are systemically disadvanged on both a legal and economic scale that makes it easier for wealthy and powerful men to treat them as sexual objects. Attempting to ignore the systemic history of misogyny and then declare that if you don’t think women are capable of being invulnerable to these forces is misogynistic. Feminism not just about equality, it’s about equity and recognition that the patriarchy is maintained to isolate women from the equity that would free them of another avenue of control.

think that empowering women to understand they are individuals who can make choices for themselves and who can hold otherwise in positions of power to account is a much better approach.

How exactly is the 19 year going to hold their powerful partner to account if they are abused? Choosing to be controlled by a much more powerful man is your version of feminism?

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Damionsipher@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

Does your faux feminist view actually help protect women, or does it help protect the men who prey upon them?>

That’s where you said that women need protection from “men who prey upon them”. Every statement you make suggests that women need protection from power imbalances and that society needs to focus its efforts on protecting them in their innocence.

Chloe Mendel is an NYC fashion industry heris. She was established as a corporate executive by the time she was 30 and has otherwise enjoyed a life guided by wealth and nepotism. In contrast, Billy Corgan was raised in a lower middle-class household in the Chicago suburbs, with his youth marked by an abusive father. Corgan is a notable piece of shit, but this was long known prior to the start of his and Mendel’s relationship.

Your fluctuating in and out of calling old white men evil and young women innocent and incapable of power seems directed at creating a worldview that erases women’s history and identity while elevating the power of old white men. If you actually cared about power balance within a relationships, I would have hoped you could provide a single piece of data on why Mendel was deprived of power, beyond “she’s too young!”. A woman who holds that much wealth and family power at a young age doesn’t exactly scream “incapable innocent”, though, does it? I see no reason to believe that there is anything nefarious to this relationship, or that Mendel was powerless from its outset. Sure, Corgan sucks as a human, but I see no evidence of his relationship to Mendel as being “wrong”.

I don’t disagree that women are systematically disadvantaged, but placing that disadvantage on age only obfuscates how women are disadvantaged in favour of a narrative that women’s choices are not valid in the face of the broader context of being disadvantage. All this framing does is further solidify the societal notions that women are enfeeble and in need of protection as they are otherwise incapable of defending themselves. It operates on a level that places women’s autonomy as a lower priority than discrediting old white men.

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- TranscendentalEmpire@lemmy.today ⁨4⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
  
  That’s where you said that women need protection from “men who prey upon them”. Every statement you make suggests that women need protection from power imbalances and that society needs to focus its efforts on protecting them in their innocence.
  
  Why do you think disenfranchised people want equality? Do you think it’s just to feel proud? Not being equal means you are vulnerable to abuse from those with more access to power.
  
  Are you denying that there are women who have been preyed upon by men? Are you denying that women have been disenfranchised from economic and social independence?
  
  All disadvantaged groups want the same protections offered by a truly equal society. I don’t know why you keep trying to interpret that in the most neck beard way possible.
  
  Chloe Mendel is an NYC fashion industry heris. She was established as a corporate executive by the time she was 30 and has otherwise enjoyed a life guided by wealth and nepotism.
  
  " In 2011, the company closed its Chicago flagship store.[25] In 2013, Gores was looking for an additional partner in the company.[26] In 2015, a majority stake was sold to Stallion, Inc.[27][28] In 2018, J. Mendel was under six different lawsuits for unpaid bills, relating to unpaid office space, advertising and materials.[29][30] In June, the company filed for Chapter 11 protection in bankruptcy court"
  
  I don’t think they were really going to inherit a lot of wealth. She’s the daughter of a luxury clothes designer who lost their business. She was a CEO after ten years of being in a relationship with a millionaire.
  
  Billy Corgan was raised in a lower middle-class household in the Chicago suburbs, with his youth marked by an abusive father. Corgan is a notable piece of shit, but this was long known prior to the start of his and Mendel’s relationship.
  
  Again, we are talking about the people at the time which applies to there own relationship. Which would still make him vastly more powerful than her. Also what the hell do you think a 19 year old knows about a person in a band that was popular before they were born?
  
  Your fluctuating in and out of calling old white men evil and young women innocent and incapable of power seems directed at creating a worldview that erases women’s history and identity while elevating the power of old white men.
  
  Do you only speak through strawman arguments? I never said any of that.
  
  If you actually cared about power balance within a relationships, I would have hoped you could provide a single piece of data on why Mendel was deprived of power, beyond “she’s too young!”. A woman who holds that much wealth and family power at a young age doesn’t exactly scream “incapable innocent”, though, does it?
  
  Kinda sounds like that’s what her husband thinks “her youth was an advantage because she hadn’t been wounded like so many people are, because you just go through life and you get wounded. So I had the advantage of somebody who was really open to love and the possibility and, for whatever reason, just decided not to judge me for who I was, particularly in that moment.”
  
  disagree that women are systematically disadvantaged, but placing that disadvantage on age only obfuscates how women are disadvantaged in favour of a narrative that women’s choices are not valid in the face of the broader context of being disadvantage.
  
  Pretty sure I talked about legal, social, and economic power… You are the one who seems to be focusing on age alone.
  
  solidify the societal notions that women are enfeeble and in need of protection as they are otherwise incapable of defending themselves.
  
  Lol, again with the faux feminist concern. Your totally being woke for being brave enough to allow the teenager to be sexually exploited to the rich.
  
  You do know you could use all your arguments to justify the sex trafficking by Jeffrey Epstein right? Jeffrey was totally woke because he allowed women to make choices, like getting on the plane to the rape island.
  
  It operates on a level that places women’s autonomy as a lower priority than discrediting old white men.
  
  Again, you are pretending as if a 19 year old has the same ability to resist coercion and manipulation as a 50 year old with power over them.
  
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  - Damionsipher@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
    Your obviously not interested in a discussion, you’re her for a debate and to be “right”. You’re deciding to look at the issue as “any age gap is indicative of power imbalance” and gloss over any notion of what being an adult in the world means. I have asked multiple times, in multiple threads that if 19 does not constitute being an adult, what does? That you conflate that with a justification of child sex trafficking is an insane position. I haven’t made a single value claim about what it means to be a consenting adult, but I will here for clarity: if someone is allowed to vote, has graduated primary education (high school), can serve in the military, or can be sued/imprisoned for their actions as a coherent individual of sound mind, they are an adult. I think society’s shorthand of 18 is reasonable, albeit sometimes problematic, towards these effects, and that if someone can work as a wage labourer, vote, or be killed in military combat, they should be able to decide on a romantic partner for themselves. I think conversion and consent laws should be strengthened, towards respecting women’s decisions regarding their own bodies, from what sexual and/or romantic partners they choose, to if they choose to engage in sex work, or beyond. I think sex work is real work and should be enshrined as such towards providing workers rights (including pensioner, vacation, employment insurance, and sick leave rights). On a personal note, I’m married to a woman who is 8onths younger than I am, and who is a published sex worker advocate and with whom I bonded over feminist theory. We both reject Puritan notions of feminism that do nothing to address underlying societal/cultural narratives that disenfranchise women from attaining personal autonomy. Keep slinging the personal insults all you like, but know that by doing so you only serve to embolden culture war distractions that would rather fixation on “sexual deviance” than systemic issues that perpetuate oppression throughout society.
    
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    TranscendentalEmpire@lemmy.today ⁨3⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
    
    Your obviously not interested in a discussion, you’re her for a debate and to be “right”.
    
    What is a discussion where two people have opposing narratives that conflict…? What would we call that?
    
    You’re deciding to look at the issue as “any age gap is indicative of power imbalance” and gloss over any notion of what being an adult in the world means.
    
    Any significant age gap is a type of power imbalance that can occur in a relationship.
    
    I have asked multiple times, in multiple threads that if 19 does not constitute being an adult, what does?
    
    You haven’t asked me… Who said it’s ethical for an adult to take advantage of another adult?
    
    That you conflate that with a justification of child sex trafficking is an insane position.
    
    Why according to your argument is that you support any woman to make decisions for themselves, even if the outcome is really bad. What are you saying every rich man who flies you in a plane is Jeffrey Epstein?
    
    On a personal note, I’m married to a woman who is 8onths younger than I am, and who is a published sex worker advocate and with whom I bonded over feminist theory.
    
    Sounds like you lacked dialectic materialism in your feminists analysis. Your interpretation of feminism just so happens to match the needs of the aristocratic class. Convenient.
    
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