Comment on Fewer People 55-And-Over Choose To Work. But Why?

• schipelblorp@sh.itjust.works ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

  Yes, first: let me congratulate you on your perseverance throughout the day on this topic.

  Second, I did acknowledge that my first link was lacking exactly what I said we needed to establish bias, so I provided a study demonstrating exactly that: bias against older workers in the job application process.

  Third, talking to you has been entertaining because you do offer a convincing simulation of thought, but the more I talk to you, the clearer it is that it is only a simulation and now I am done. Good day.

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  • TranscendentalEmpire@lemmy.today ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    Even if you find some cases of bias, it doesn’t mean that it’s widespread, nor does it mean it affects you personally. Especially considering that your age bracket still has the lowest unemployment numbers.

    only a simulation and now I am done. Good day.

    I bet you need to conserve your energy to really handle being unemployed all day.

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    • schipelblorp@sh.itjust.works ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      First, finding examples of age bias obviously doesn’t automatically prove that age discrimination is widespread. But it also doesn’t make those examples irrelevant. If the question is whether age bias exists or can affect people in hiring and employment, you don’t need to prove that literally every employer is doing it. You need to establish that it happens often enough, and in circumstances important enough, to have a meaningful effect.

      Second, the unemployment rate really isn’t enough to settle the question. Unemployment numbers tell you how many people are unemployed among people who are actively participating in the labor market. They don’t tell you everything about why someone is unemployed, how long they’ve been looking, whether they’ve stopped looking altogether, whether they’re underemployed, whether they’re being passed over for jobs they’re qualified for, or whether they’ve had to accept worse jobs than they otherwise would have.

      That distinction matters alot with age. Someone can technically be employed while still experiencing age-related disadvantages in hiring, promotions, layoffs, compensation, career progression, etc. And someone who gets discouraged and leaves the labor force doesn’t necessarily show up as “unemployed” in the way you’re implying.

      Third, saying “it doesn’t mean it affects you personally” is kind of beside the point unless the original argument was specifically claiming that every person in that age group is personally experiencing discrimination. Obviously an aggregate pattern doesn’t mean every individual experiences it. The existence of racial discrimination, sex discrimination, disability discrimination, or any other form of discrimination doesn’t mean every person in the relevant group has personally encountered it either.

      And honestly, I’d flip the logic around. If someone says, “I’m seeing evidence that age can be a disadvantage in certain employment situations,” responding with “but your age group has low unemployment” doesn’t really address the claim. You’d need to show that the particular evidence is unrepresentative, that the effect disappears when controlling for relevant factors, or that the broader data contradicts it.

      Theirs also a difference between saying “older workers have higher unemployment” and saying “older workers can face age-related barriers in the labor market.” Those are not the same proposition. In fact, older workers can have relatively low unemployment while still facing particular problems with getting hired after a job loss, changing careers, being perceived as overqualified, having higher salary expectations, or dealing with stereotypes about adaptability and technology.

      So I’m not saying, “There are a couple examples, therefore everyone is discriminating against older workers.” That would obviously be an overreach. I’m saying that the existence and significance of age bias can’t really be dismissed just because the overall unemployment rate for an age bracket happens to be low.

      If were going to talk about whether age bias is actually widespread, the useful question is what the broader evidence says about hiring outcomes, callback rates, longterm unemployment, earnings, layoffs, and labor force participation, not simply whether the headline unemployment rate for that demographic is low.

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      • TranscendentalEmpire@lemmy.today ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

        Christ, I thought you said you were done? Did we manage to find some spare time in your busy work schedule?

        But it also doesn’t make those examples irrelevant. If the question is whether age bias exists or can affect people in hiring and employment, you don’t need to prove that literally every employer is doing it. You need to establish that it happens often enough, and in circumstances important enough, to have a meaningful effect.

        Things you haven’t done?

        why someone is unemployed, how long they’ve been looking, whether they’ve stopped looking altogether, whether they’re underemployed, whether they’re being passed over for jobs they’re qualified for, or whether they’ve had to accept worse jobs than they otherwise would have.

        Things that apply to all age brackets of the unemployed?

        Someone can technically be employed while still experiencing age-related disadvantages in hiring, promotions, layoffs, compensation, career progression, etc. And someone who gets discouraged and leaves the labor force doesn’t necessarily show up as “unemployed” in the way you’re implying.

        Are any of those relevant to my rebuttal of your claim? Do they not apply to any other age bracket?

        Third, saying “it doesn’t mean it affects you personally” is kind of beside the point unless the original argument was specifically claiming that every person in that age group is personally experiencing discrimination. Obviously an aggregate pattern doesn’t mean every individual experiences it. The existence of racial discrimination, sex discrimination, disability discrimination, or any other form of discrimination doesn’t mean every person in the relevant group has personally encountered it either.

        Your original statement was about you personally experiencing discrimination because of your age.

        “I’m seeing evidence that age can be a disadvantage in certain employment situations,” responding with “but your age group has low unemployment” doesn’t really address the claim.

        Another straw man argument. That’s not the inverse of my rebuttal.

        “older workers can face age-related barriers in the labor market.”

        That was not your original statement.

        “There are a couple examples, therefore everyone is discriminating against older workers.” That would obviously be an overreach. I’m saying that the existence and significance of age bias can’t really be dismissed just because the overall unemployment rate for an age bracket happens to be low.

        No you claimed that you were experiencing unemployment and that it was due to ageism.

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