Comment on Why is Jury Nullification a Thing, But You Can’t Talk About It in Court?

• Rivalarrival@lemmy.today ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

  You seem to be suggesting that moral considerations are not relevant to legal proceedings, yet simultaneously arguing that jurors should refuse to convict on moral grounds.

  This is correct. There is no paradox here; no hypocrisy.

  “We The People” empower the constitution. The Constitution empowers the government. The government has only the law; it does not have any sort of moral code. The government cannot consider moral principals in the application of law.

  The juror is not a member of the government. The juror is a member of “We The People”; a peer of the accused.

  Where the juror is convinced that the legislated law does not appropriately consider the specific circumstance of the accused, the juror is constitutionally permitted to return a “just” verdict, consistent with their own morality.

  The jury is NEVER obligated to return an unjust verdict.

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  • null_dot@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

    Where the juror is convinced that the legislature did not appropriately consider the specific circumstance of the accused, the juror is constitutionally permitted to return a “just” verdict, consistent with their own morality.

    As I’ve said elsewhere, this is just made up poppycock that sounds nice.

    I’m sure that wherever that’s written down in the “rules” it also says all good dogs go to heaven right?

    Anyhow, as we seem to have exhausted your repertoire of made up constitutional wisdom I think I’ll leave you to continue reassuring yourself that the founding fathers invented jury nullification and wanted Luigi to walk free.

    While I look forward to reading your final parting dispensation of mythical wondery, I will not reply.

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    • Rivalarrival@lemmy.today ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

      As I’ve said elsewhere, this is just made up poppycock that sounds nice.

      What does the phrase “We The People” mean, as used in the preamble of the constitution?

      This is basic, foundational stuff we are talking about here. The fundamental concepts of democracy. Those aren’t just fun, patriotic words; they have actual meanings. Our government does not arise from “divine right” or “ancestral claims”. It exists because We The People willed it into existence. We willed into existence the right of the accused to be judged not by agents of the government, but by the peers of the accused. The same “We The People” who conveyed a tiny portion of their powers to allow the United States government to come into existence are charged also with wielding their power in determining the guilt or innocence of the accused.

      You suggestion that the jury is beholden to the legislature is offensive. Your suggestion that “We The People” are legally and constitutionally obligated to enforce unjust laws promulgated by a corrupt legislature is absolutely galling. Made up poppycock that sounds nice? This is a core tenet of democracy we are talking about here.

      I have asked you, repeatedly, to provide the constitutional basis for your claims, as I have repeatedly provided for mine. The closest you have come to any sort of support for your position is this statement:

      Any observer can see that the jury is in place to provide a check against the judiciary and the executive.

      That is not in any way a reasonable, rational argument.

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• Triasha@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

  If I am on a jury, part of my job is to consider the justice of the law.

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  • null_dot@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

    That’s the argument.

    You might feel thats how things ought to be but you’re unable to support your statement with anything other than the vibe.

    We have a system for considering the justice of law. Citizens elect representatives who debate, create, and revise laws on their behalf.

    If you feel that someone who kills a CEO you don’t like should be exempt from a charge of murder then you should discuss that with your local representative.

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    • Rivalarrival@lemmy.today ⁨1⁩ ⁨hour⁩ ago

      We have a system for considering the justice of law. Citizens elect representatives who debate, create, and revise laws on their behalf.

      That same system also explicitly enables the executive to pardon the accused outright, specifically exempting them from the laws created on behalf of the citizenry. The system itself tells us that legislated laws should not be considered sacrosanct.

      The juror’s role is external to that system. Jurors are not representatives of the government, and owe no duties to that government, nor any part of that government.

      Juries typically accept legislated law because they choose to. Generally speaking, a jury should abide by the will of the legislature. But, they are not beholden. They are constitutionally empowered to determine that a particular law did not adequately consider the specific circumstances of the accused, and would be unjust to apply.

      Demanding that a jury obey the legislature without consideration of their greater constitutional obligation to the accused makes them a representative of the government, rather than a layperson jury.

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