Comment on Why The Government Has Infinite Money
gataloca@lemmy.world 1 year agoIf defending yourself against a fascist invasion is pro war, so be it. Let me ask you: what the fuck was ukraine supposed to do? Lay down their weapons? Let the orks kill their men, rape their women and children? Should we let countries invade eachother for no fucking reason? Or should we fight back and try our hardest to defeat tyranny?
I wholeheartedly support people seeking to protect their loved ones, but war isn’t that. War is when you fight for a capitalist state in order to reach their political goals. That’s true both in offense as well as in defense. For Russia that interest is to steal Ukrainian land to reach Putin’s flimsy goals, whereas for Ukraine, it’s to preserve the independence and integrity of their country. But unless you’re looking at something like literal nazis who are looking to exterminate you, then you’re not looking at death when you get defeated, you instead have new management. The Ukrainian people doesn’t disappear because Ukraine disappears.
The path toward war isn’t instant. Ukraine has a history with Russia that can easily put them at odds with Russian interests. Their previous governments understood this and tried to keep a good relationship with Russia. War was the price they had to pay for rejecting Russia and moving closer to Europe and USA. Belarus doesn’t have this problem because they managed to collaborate with Russia. In a world where might makes right (like in capitalist worlds), then this is the logical outcome of geopolitical competition. The obvious way to protect the interests of the Ukrainian state would have been to keep the nuclear weapons because then they could at least threaten Russia with nuclear war. That’s how geopolitics works in capitalism.
The best way to protect the interest of the people would be to have socialist governments in both countries. Then there would be no need for war.
And once again and I will never stop saying this: ruzzia started this war. Not Ukraine. They are defending themselves. Kremlin always has a choice, for Ukraine, not fighting means certain death. War does not justify any means because there js no justification. Its a brutal invasion.
For Ukraine not fighting means death of the state. You seem to think that Ukrainian state and the people are the same, but they’re not. Workers are workers independent of state. We are just slaves to be used by the capitalist states as they wish and we shouldn’t be loyal to them just like we should be loyal to our employers. Russia has chosen to use their slaves to invade Ukraine and that most certainly means death and destruction (especially considering how Russia’s military has conducted the war) so to end the war is to conclude the war as quickly as possible.
Ukraine can surrender, although I don’t think that’s a good option. Especially for the sake of setting a precedent in geopolitics since that means that (like you said); it validates the invasion and wars of conquest which is a bad thing and shouldn’t be validated.
But once again I will reiterate I don’t expect Russia to give up either. The conflict will therefore continue until either Russia decides that they can’t fight anymore or Ukraine collapse. The worst case scenario would be if Russia decides to make good on their threats and decide to launch nukes and that might happen if Ukraine becomes seen as a serious threat.
Its his words, not mine. He called it a far right coup backed by US. Both of these are lies.
Yes it is his words, spoken to a specific audience.
He calls it that because he is spouting ruzzian propaganda. Hopefully we could at least agree on that.
If that’s the case than that would surprise me. I wonder what stake MLs would have in supporting modern Russia since it’s a capitalist dystopia run by oligarchs. Now if it was Soviet propaganda on the other hand, I would understand. That’s why I highly doubt your claims of them lying and spouting Russian propaganda, because lying for the sake of Russia doesn’t make any sense.
That is a rather big if there buddy. Dylan does give explanation why it wasn’t and if not in this video, he absolutely debunked it in his video about euromaidan. Also he does give counter evidence against the claim that it was backed by US. Did US send its troops? No. Their Diplomats? Their people to protest? No. They were supporting it because they rose up against their former president and in the same way against ruzzia. Obviously US would be happy about it, i am not blind. But there is no evidence for the fact it was “backed” by the us
That’s not counter evidence, that’s conjecture. You don’t have to send troops. Every country will have people to challenge the status quo. It’s not like USA sent troops to Al-Quaida or the Lybian rebels or created them from nothing, they were already there! They could support groups with weapons, supplies, communication or training or some other way. Now with that being said, I don’t think US armed the rebels or supplied them and I would be surprised if Second Thought are hinting at that. I’m curious myself what they actually are referring to, but I doubt they have actually released a video on the subject. I never came across a video on their main channel about it and I don’t want to listen through all of the deprogram either.
You must have misunderstood me then, his videos are on his main channel are not so overt because he hides his true colours.
In this case you must be misunderstanding me. He’s open about his biases. They’re not exactly hiding that they’re all MLs. That’s why I said that his stance doesn’t seem any different. It’s similar talking points, similar rhetoric. Just a different format.
Also I just want to point out that just because I despise ruzzia with every fibre of my being, I do not like the US. They have done some really fucked up things and their domestic politics are awful.
Yes it’s terrible that the world has become the plaything of all these large countries USA, Russia and China. I am strictly against USA in its current form as well and I’m also against Putin’s Russia. They are two very dangerous countries and it’s truly a travesty that they hold the largest nuclear arsenals to subjugate the rest of the world with.
But right now, they support a country that deserves support. I don’t want this war to go on, I really don’t. I love ukranian cities and their people, their beautiful nature and their tasty food. I want to see my ukrainan friends again.
But it was taken, some are dead, some fight as I speak. Hopefully, some day, I’ll be able to hug them somewhere in a Ukranian beach in crimea. That’s all I want.
My personal stance since the conflict began has mostly been speaking in favor of Ukraine and against Russia, even if I am seemingly taken a pro-Russian stance here (I’m not). I don’t have a stake either in Russia or Ukraine. They’re both capitalist countries who are doing what capitalist countries do. The thing I want to avoid is nuclear armageddon and I certainly dislike USA lording over everything and increasing the risk.
TheBlue22@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 year ago
Have you forgotten what Ruzzia does to its people?
Just to remind you:
You are not allowed free expression. You can be arrested for holding a blank sign.
Homosexuality is restricted if not forbidden completely in some regions. There is no protection for anyone in the LGBTQ+ spectrum.
It is a dictatorship in every single sense of the word. Elections are fake, and speaking put against it is forbidden.
Most people live in horrible conditions as all money has been taken by the elites.
Anything but “ruSSian culture” is ignored. the USSR is taken as a deity.
I can continue on, but you get the point.
Giving up, surrendering, does not mean only the death of the state. It is the death of democracy. Of free speech. Of anything that is ukranian. Houndreds of thousands of ukranians would be arrested for speaking out. How many more would die? Giving up would be the death of ukranian culture, its language, hundreds of years of history. This what ruzzia does, and this is what they intended to do.
And do you seriously think that Ukraine giving up would be the end, though? Seriously? It’s like saying that everything ended after the US invaded Iraq or Afghanistan. Of course not. Fucking hell the invasion itself was supposed to be the easy part. There would be descent all over, hidden cells that would cause as much chaos to this new “management.” It would never end.
I would not blame the United States for “increasing risk of nuclear war.” It’s ruzzia that constantly swings its nukes around. Are you seriously gonna be like, “Oh sure, let them bully everyone because of their nukes” nah fuck that. I am more than confident that not only the orcs do not have the stupidity to use their arsenal, if they did, its them who would be exterminated, not the free world.
Finally, he is using ruzzian or Chinese propaganda, hard to tell because they are so bloody similar to this issue. It is odd to me that ML supporting ruzzia would surprise you? Why? Most MLs and tankies work on “America bad” logic. So they support any and all of America enemies. Be it China, ruzzia, North Korea, or Cuba. It does not matter, just so they can be against the us.
His whole video and and most of channel works on that logic, and this specific video is pro ruzzia. He never specifically criticises ruzzia, he sure loves telling bullshit about Ukrainians and making them just pawns in a game us is playing. Which is extremely insulting and degrading if you ask me.
gataloca@lemmy.world 1 year ago
You’re being melodramatic! As if there’s any democracy in parliamentarism anyway! You’re basically telling me that people who challenge their society gets arrested and some might die. I don’t sympathize with people willing to sacrifice themselves for a state or a nation. That’s foolish, especially when this state has been defeated! The geographical location of Ukraine has been Russian for a very long time and I’m curious what you think Ukrainian (as opposed to Russian) culture even is. The state of Ukraine is barely 33 years old! Additionally Russia organizes itself into regions with varying levels of autonomy, sometimes regions with very high autonomy. It’s not like a country such as Poland or Czechia where there’s little difference between the regions.
You’re wrong about the outcome of nuclear war. The only way only Russia is exterminated by nuclear war would be 1) If the US would attack first and 2) If they resign to their fate without retaliating or 3) it happens in your fantasy. 1 and 2 are highly unlikely. 3 is guaranteed but not helpful.
It’s true that MLs hate America as it exists right now. Even if you ignore all of the other faults of USA, they’re the primary enforcer of capitalism after all. America effectively runs the world, holds the exchange currency of the world, decides international law (especially surrounding the internet and intellectual property) and isn’t held accountable by anything or anyone, not even its own citizens. The reason why MLs might support many of Americas enemies is because America decides to be enemies with Marxist-Leninist states. You have to ask yourself how reasonable it is to have a country consistently deciding to make enemies of other countries because they run a different society. Russia however isn’t Marxist-Leninist so MLs don’t have a stake in defending Russia.
Most people are pawns, not just Ukrainians. Like I said; we’re slaves and additionally many are undereducated and uninformed. If people want to truly be their own people they should aspire to break free from capitalist propaganda but many just eat it right up. Even you seem to treat Ukrainians like pawns since you believe that so many will be unable to live in Russia, maybe you should give them more credit than that?
TheBlue22@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 year ago
You know nothing about ours and their culture, yet you speak on it.
You act like states do not matter, yet you believe that the culture of the state begins at its inception. Ukrainan culture is not 33 years old. If you believe that, you are delusional.
And what about fucking sacrifice for a state are you fucking talking about? How about all the LGBTQ+ community in Ukraine? Do you wish for their rights to just fucking dissappear? Do you wish for all the political parties to go with them? The socialists too? You understand they would be banned and replaced by ruzzian “counterparts,” right?
You are genuinely fucking insane if you would rather see entire cultures die and leave people to get annihilated by imperial regimes, rather than fight back. That is not a pro war position. It is the only sane one.
And the irony that you are socialist, yet the fact ukraine has been conquered by ruzzia in the past holds any water to you says a lot. The state is outside culture. It is not the same thing. And ruzzian and ukranian culture are different. The problem is that the way fascists like ruzzia conquer states is to erase culture with it, and replace it with their own. They move or kill people, move their own in so its more and more ruzzian. Same as china. Both of these are by definition, a genocide.
I do not treat Ukrainians like pawns, you do. You want them to give up, for the western support to stop, they don’t. Vast, VAST, majority do not want to be ruzzian. Do you know why? Can you possibly know why?!
Because they remember. We remember what is was to be under a dictatorship, we know too well how evil USSR was. We all felt the cost.
But Ukrainians even more. Their houses were bombed. Their men killed. Their wives raped. Their children kidnapped and are being reeducated in ruzzia as we speak. Their villages ravaged.
Say Bucha, say its name.
If after that what this imperial regime has done to Ukraine you still feel like ukrainans should lay down their arms and resign to their fate…
…then I have nothing to tell you, because then you are too deep down up the ML ass to even talk to.